- Are you going to leave?
- You have a shit memory. I am yours and you are mine.
And I definitely see your side better now too! This is one of those strange times where our interpretation seems so different, yet so similar in other ways. I also had a very strong reaction to 2014!Cas, so I see your concerns there. It's been lovely talking with you! I love your writing btw. Imitating Life is one of my favorite fics. :)
Firstly, awww, thank you, I’m glad you liked the fic. That’s probably the one I’m most proud of tbh, I’m really happy with how it turned out :)
As to our interpretations of said scene - I’m seeing both sides so clearly now I’m beginning to wonder if they are actually as at odds as they appear. I mean, we both agree Dean is being an understanding friend and showing how much he cares for Cas by trying to help. We both also agree Dean’s coping methods in life aren’t the best. It just happens that while you’re focusing more on the positives of what Dean’s words offer Cas, and how they stop Cas from a tragic downward spiral, I’m focusing more on the negatives and how, while providing Cas with short-term comfort, Dean’s philosophy is, potentially, still setting Cas up for a downward path later on… ??
Eh. In any case, I’ll enjoy this scene a lot more next time I watch it after this. And no matter what we agree it’s massively Dean/Cas all the way! It’s been great chatting to you too! Pls drop by anytime :D
#this moment is -hands down- one of my favorite destiel moments ever #for dean to actually notice cas’s hurt and acknowledge it #he wants to make him feel better instantly #and god #the way cas listens to dean #he’ve always listened #because dean is the only thing that make him feel sure #that hidden smile- kill me dude kill meeeee
Yes. But then he ruins it by throwing Cas those pills. When he KNOWS what drug addiction can do (or has done) to Cas in the future.It’s to help, sure. But it’s the ‘oh, just give up and embrace the hopelessness’ kind of help. The ‘numb the pain because it’s the only way’ kind of help.
And it’s great that he’s sharing that with Cas, in a way. Because it’s how he’s feeling, meaning he’s being fairly open (for Dean) and he’s not leaving Cas in the lurch at least.
But every time I think about this scene all I see is Dean teaching Cas how to give up. And I want better for my angel. If you’ve given up Dean then fine. But don’t drag Cas down with you.
That’s an interesting interpretation. I have seen people mention that Dean is giving Cas a drug (though a non-addicting one, it’s still interesting), but I’ve never seen the argument that this is Dean helping Cas to give up. I’m not really sure I agree with that, but it’s interesting. Helping someone deal with their pain in a healthy manner is not the same thing as helping them give up. In fact, I would argue this is Dean NOT letting Cas give up, give in to the pain and sadness, but teaching him how to deal and move on.
Or maybe even how to deal with the consequences of your decisions.
Oooh, a dialogue! Love it :)See, I don’t think this IS Dean ‘Helping someone deal with their pain in a healthy manner’ - I think it’s very much the EXACT OPPOSITE. Cas asks ‘how do you manage it?’ - how do you cope with someone who matters hugely to you letting you down? And Dean doesn’t give an answer. He gives a method of deflection, of distraction, of pointedly NOT dealing with the emotional pain Cas is suffering through. Dean’s way of dealing with pain? Is to IGNORE it and hope it goes away, or gets buried so deep beneath something else - drugs, drink, women, violence (ie. killing whores) - that he can’t feel it so much.
This is not healthy. This is not what an impressionable angel who is experiencing strong emotion for the first time in his life needs to be taught.
It is not teaching Cas to deal with the consequences of his decisions. It is teaching him that when your decisions have painful consequences (hangovers), you should avoid dealing with that by quickly throwing yourself into something that will distract you.
Dialogue is good. :) And yes I completely see the argument you are making, and I can totally see the scene being read that way. All I personally see, however, is someone with a hang over getting tossed ibuprofen by a friend and getting metaphorically hugged. If that means you’re avoiding your problems and giving up, this country is screwed. :p
What I see is Cas, ready to give up, and ready to just wallow in the pain. Then Dean walks up and says, “Nope. Get off your ass, and do something about it.” I just wonder what Cas would have done if Dean hadn’t been there for him. I’m betting the alcohol would have been a slippery slope straight into 2014!Cas. If Dean hadn’t shown up right then, I can so easily see him heading straight to a meth or coke or heroin dealer and drugging his brains out until he can’t remember there IS a whore to be killed.
I totally agree Dean has massive avoidance issues with his emotions (who doesn’t?), I just don’t think that’s what this scene specifically is really about. What would have been a better answer? There is no real and good answer to “How do you manage it?” because we all manage in different ways. So this is pretty much exactly how I would have handled this conversation in Dean’s shoes. I can see where it might not be the best way to handle it, I just don’t read it as Dean dragging Cas down with him into extreme avoidance. As I said, I completely understand where it can be read that way though and It’s even possible I will come to agree with it more, once this has settled in my brain for awhile.
Aw, a metaphorical hug. I like that :)
I feel like I should clarify that I don’t think Dean is deliberately or consciously dragging Cas down. Dean’s thought process is very much ‘my friend is hurting, I want him to feel better, I will show him he’s not alone and how I deal with the pain he’s feeling because whoa do I understand.’ And that is wonderful :)
It’s just that, because Dean’s way of dealing with pain is unhealthy and based around avoidance, it therefore passes on an unhealthy message to Cas.
However, you make a good point that Dean is, essentially, a friend throwing his hungover friend some mild painkillers. There’s not really any underlying darkness there :p
I guess some of us (me included) are just a little touchy over Cas and meds after The End and… I guess I’m just a little disappointed Dean never really seems to react to the painful person Cas becomes in that future. Ideally I would have liked a line something like ‘but don’t get used to those’ along with throwing the pills, to tell us he remembers that future and worries about Cas becoming that person and wants to stop it. There’s a vague sense here that Dean not only doesn’t care what becomes of him at this point (because I imagine he’s already leaning towards saying ‘yes’ to Michael here) but that he also doesn’t care if Cas becomes the broken, pill-popping guy from the future either…
Although, your interpretation that Dean might actually be preventing Cas from worse indulgence by throwing only ibuprofen is interesting and I hadn’t considered it before.
I need to watch this scene again now. I remember thinking the way Dean spoke and his body language just conveyed a sense of ‘I’m too tired to give you the pep-talk I can see you need, so instead I’m gonna get us back to business so we can bury our troubles together.’ Dean seemed too… tired, too listless to be properly telling Cas ‘come on, get up and try and shake this off with something positive and physical’ like I think you’re suggesting. It felt more like… ‘*sigh* there’s nothing you can do about this Cas, all of it is shitty, come on, might as well move on to the next shitty thing on the list…’
People talk about Dean smiling a little in the last gif. But god, I don’t see that at all. His eyebrow lift looks more like resigned ‘get it? I got nothing to offer you, but you might as well tag along anyway right, since there’s nothing better out there?’ more than a semi-positive ‘hey, come on, this is something, it could help.’
…eh. YMMV and all that. I can certainly see your side more than I used to now you’ve broken it down for me though! :)
#this moment is -hands down- one of my favorite destiel moments ever #for dean to actually notice cas’s hurt and acknowledge it #he wants to make him feel better instantly #and god #the way cas listens to dean #he’ve always listened #because dean is the only thing that make him feel sure #that hidden smile- kill me dude kill meeeee
Yes. But then he ruins it by throwing Cas those pills. When he KNOWS what drug addiction can do (or has done) to Cas in the future.It’s to help, sure. But it’s the ‘oh, just give up and embrace the hopelessness’ kind of help. The ‘numb the pain because it’s the only way’ kind of help.
And it’s great that he’s sharing that with Cas, in a way. Because it’s how he’s feeling, meaning he’s being fairly open (for Dean) and he’s not leaving Cas in the lurch at least.
But every time I think about this scene all I see is Dean teaching Cas how to give up. And I want better for my angel. If you’ve given up Dean then fine. But don’t drag Cas down with you.
That’s an interesting interpretation. I have seen people mention that Dean is giving Cas a drug (though a non-addicting one, it’s still interesting), but I’ve never seen the argument that this is Dean helping Cas to give up. I’m not really sure I agree with that, but it’s interesting. Helping someone deal with their pain in a healthy manner is not the same thing as helping them give up. In fact, I would argue this is Dean NOT letting Cas give up, give in to the pain and sadness, but teaching him how to deal and move on.
Or maybe even how to deal with the consequences of your decisions.
Interesting. I never saw it this way, though. It’s true, Dean’s way of dealing isn’t particularly healthy. But i always thought that what he was offering here was simply support for the shared experience (missing fathers). They’d both given up on god by this point, i think, so it wasn’t about motivating Cas to keep looking. Dean simply wanted to help him feel somewhat better.
I don’t mean Dean was teaching Cas to give up on god. More to ‘give up’ in an abstract, general sense. Give up on the world, on life, on trying to deal with difficult emotions. Remember this is the episode where Dean gives up on fighting destiny and chooses to give himself to Michael. That decision is already building in him here IMO and influencing everything he says and does.
I don’t think he’s trying to consciously tell Cas any of this, of course. He is absolutely trying only to comfort, and that is wonderful because - aw, Dean, caring, otp! It just so happens that I think his brand of comfort, unknown to him, is doing possibly more harm than good in this case.
#this moment is -hands down- one of my favorite destiel moments ever #for dean to actually notice cas’s hurt and acknowledge it #he wants to make him feel better instantly #and god #the way cas listens to dean #he’ve always listened #because dean is the only thing that make him feel sure #that hidden smile- kill me dude kill meeeee
Yes. But then he ruins it by throwing Cas those pills. When he KNOWS what drug addiction can do (or has done) to Cas in the future.It’s to help, sure. But it’s the ‘oh, just give up and embrace the hopelessness’ kind of help. The ‘numb the pain because it’s the only way’ kind of help.
And it’s great that he’s sharing that with Cas, in a way. Because it’s how he’s feeling, meaning he’s being fairly open (for Dean) and he’s not leaving Cas in the lurch at least.
But every time I think about this scene all I see is Dean teaching Cas how to give up. And I want better for my angel. If you’ve given up Dean then fine. But don’t drag Cas down with you.
That’s an interesting interpretation. I have seen people mention that Dean is giving Cas a drug (though a non-addicting one, it’s still interesting), but I’ve never seen the argument that this is Dean helping Cas to give up. I’m not really sure I agree with that, but it’s interesting. Helping someone deal with their pain in a healthy manner is not the same thing as helping them give up. In fact, I would argue this is Dean NOT letting Cas give up, give in to the pain and sadness, but teaching him how to deal and move on.
Or maybe even how to deal with the consequences of your decisions.
Oooh, a dialogue! Love it :)
See, I don’t think this IS Dean ‘Helping someone deal with their pain in a healthy manner’ - I think it’s very much the EXACT OPPOSITE. Cas asks ‘how do you manage it?’ - how do you cope with someone who matters hugely to you letting you down? And Dean doesn’t give an answer. He gives a method of deflection, of distraction, of pointedly NOT dealing with the emotional pain Cas is suffering through. Dean’s way of dealing with pain? Is to IGNORE it and hope it goes away, or gets buried so deep beneath something else - drugs, drink, women, violence (ie. killing whores) - that he can’t feel it so much.
This is not healthy. This is not what an impressionable angel who is experiencing strong emotion for the first time in his life needs to be taught.
It is not teaching Cas to deal with the consequences of his decisions. It is teaching him that when your decisions have painful consequences (hangovers), you should avoid dealing with that by quickly throwing yourself into something that will distract you.
#this moment is -hands down- one of my favorite destiel moments ever #for dean to actually notice cas’s hurt and acknowledge it #he wants to make him feel better instantly #and god #the way cas listens to dean #he’ve always listened #because dean is the only thing that make him feel sure #that hidden smile- kill me dude kill meeeee
Yes. But then he ruins it by throwing Cas those pills. When he KNOWS what drug addiction can do (or has done) to Cas in the future.
It’s to help, sure. But it’s the ‘oh, just give up and embrace the hopelessness’ kind of help. The ‘numb the pain because it’s the only way’ kind of help.
And it’s great that he’s sharing that with Cas, in a way. Because it’s how he’s feeling, meaning he’s being fairly open (for Dean) and he’s not leaving Cas in the lurch at least.
But every time I think about this scene all I see is Dean teaching Cas how to give up. And I want better for my angel. If you’ve given up Dean then fine. But don’t drag Cas down with you.
